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Talk:Zaiyan
Zaiyan does not show up in any of the published stories. The only mention in the Crystal Hall Forums is in regard to fan fiction. Zaiyan has been included in one of the lists maintained by fans of characters, but my interpretation is that this was a result of misinterpreting one of the fan fiction mentions, taking it to refer to canon rather than fan fiction. Due to being on said fan maintained list, Zaiyan may need to be maintained with a mention of being fan fiction, for just removing the page will merely result in it being recreated. kd7mvs/JohnBobMead JohnBobMead 18:04, May 13, 2010 (UTC) He is in the Power rangers page form original canon bible material in the old wiki, and the wiki froze several months before the mentioned fanfic appearance, which was also preceded by the fanfic author asking on the forums whether anything more than his code name was known from canon so it's 100% clear that the name is not a fanfic invention. As mentioned in the article he does appear in a canon story, Insanity prerequisite 4, he just isn't mentioned by name. But there clearly is a very muscular energizer who is member of the Power Rangers, the other 4 main members of the Power Rangers are also there and fit with the original Power Rangers entry, and there is no particular reason to think the canon cabal changed their minds on his code name. And even if you think they might possibly have, there clearly is a canon character at least loosely based on the original concept for Zaiyan and the page needs to be called something. Addiab 18:55, May 13, 2010 (UTC) Hmm. Looking through the old wiki entry, and IPP4, and accepting the statement that the old wiki entry is from the old canon bible, there are still sections of the entry for which I see no basis. To wit: "He personally identifies with the Dragon Ball character Son Gokū and derives his code name from the name of that character's species, Saiyan.", and Class of 2009; I'm not seeing anything to support those. JohnBobMead 20:59, May 13, 2010 (UTC) He is described as a "Goku-energizer", is called Zaiyan, and is member of a group who personally identify and call themselves after anime characters, do we really need the case to be any clearer than that? We could pretty much give up doing anything but collect at most slightly reworded story snippets on this wiki then. As for his year, http://gemini.ralabs.com/userbible09xz/tiki-index.php?page=Power+Rangers 2M means sophomore atm i.e. class of 2009. Addiab 22:09, May 13, 2010 (UTC) It's not canon until it's mentioned in a published story. The fact that it was in the canon bible six years ago doesn't mean it's carved in stone, or that the character will ever appear. My personal opinion is that I'd just as soon not bring it over, or else mark the entry with the "2005 bible" category.XaltatunOfAcheron 22:55, May 13, 2010 (UTC) 2M means sophomore. How in the HELL am I supposed to figure that out. So what's 3F, 4M, and 1M mean? It's clear we come from different schools of thought in regard to what one includes in a wiki. I come from a history/librarian perspective, including six years in charge of the Oregon Historical Society reference collections, and my perspective is that one puts in what can be verified, that if you go back to the source materials its there. That a wiki is to help gather and clarify information, bringing it together from disparate sources so that there is one place one can go and find distilled knowledge. Citations and references are a Good Thing. If information conflicts, it should be noted with sources, as with Flicker being given two different cottages in two different stories. Using a narrative style, as this wiki does, is nice, but you need to make sure that the contents are verifiable, because sometimes commonly held ideas about something are wrong, false information, or derived from non-canonical sources. As Xaltatun points out, it's really nice when stuff from the 2005 Bible infodump are labelled as such, because that's historical information, and may no longer reflect where the Whateley Universe has gone, may be in active conflict with canon. And I should step back from this for a bit, as I'm not being as calm and reasoned as I would like. As can be seen from the first sentence of this post. JohnBobMead 02:08, May 14, 2010 (UTC) "How in the HELL am I supposed to figure that out. So what's 3F, 4M, and 1M mean?" By thinking about it for a few seconds? What else would be important information to include in such an economical description, and applicable to every student noted in such manner, i. e. everyone with e clique page originating from the bible? Obviously 2M means second year, male, 3F third year, female, 4M fourth year, male and so on. @Xalt: But as i previously noted Zaiyan does appear in canon, and arguably prominently enough to warrant a short article just for that appearance. Would you prefer the article to be titled "unknown Power Ranger cosplaying as Yosho"? Being reluctant with characters whose very canon existence is doubtful, or with extensive backgrounds of characters that are not even hinted at is one thing, but there is pretty much no reason to suspect his code name and theme would be changed. It's not like we have seen anyone elses code name changed from a bible originating clique page, or have we? Addiab 02:37, May 14, 2010 (UTC) I'd feel fairly comfortable if the page was marked that the code name was a reasonable guess, and that the information from the old wiki was identified as such. I don't remember if kd7mvs was around when we started the old wiki, but one of the requests from Warren was that we source everything possible. The old wiki made that relatively difficult (you had to use wiki comments) -- I like this method much better. Cases like Zaiyan and Bronze are relatively easy, but if you weren't here that far back it might be difficult to identify what was seed information and what's from stories. If in doubt, ask! There are several of us that were here and can identify what's what. As for the 1F, 4M etc code letters, they're original seed information that indicates the character's class standing and sex at the start of the Fall 2006 term. We had a discussion about that and decided that it would be too confusing to continue that system once Whateley went into a second year, so we decided on the class of xxxx instead.XaltatunOfAcheron 02:57, May 14, 2010 (UTC) March 2009; I'm relatively new, one of the talkative bunch that came in in the last year plus, although not via TVTropes. So I don't have the corporate memory of the old wiki foundation, and those discussions, I have the perspective of someone trying to use the thing without being clued into it's various idiosyncracies. And without the clue that their supposed to refer to grade, those codes are pretty opaque; I didn't think in regard to year, as that would become misleading information once we hit the next school year, even though that may not be for another five years our time. And without knowing about the info dump from the canon bible, there was stuff in the old wiki that had no supporting documentation; if tikiwiki had supported it, and I'd known how to do it, I'd have probably been putting a lot of "citation needed" markers up for stuff from the info dump that hadn't shown up anywhere else. Which ties into the whole needing to indicate where things come from, the end-users aren't necessarilly going to know about non-standard sources for the info included in the entries. I'm guilty of not searching the old wiki to see if that was where some of this information came from, but without knowing about the info dump, it shouldn't be needful to search the old wiki, searching the stories and the forums would pull up everything pertenant. The stories are canonical, they're a primary source, the forum WoGs are secondary sources, and the info dump would also be a secondary source if properly identified. Although, thinking about it, if a WoG was inserted into the old wiki it would only show up by searching the old wiki, like EENalley having just posted that Ty West is what's his names code name, so I will try to remember to search the old wiki in future before crying "foul". Hopefully something useful can be gleaned from this series of posts, I'd hope it's more than just Addiab and myself getting frustrated with each other. JohnBobMead 13:49, May 14, 2010 (UTC) I'm not saying you should have known about the old wiki (although I wasn't part of that either and found the whole thing pretty obvious with a little reading around), it would be unreasonable to require every editor to know everything about that, but you definitely should have waited a few hours after raising the issue on the talk page before jumping to conclusions and editing things left and right, or at the very least half an hour (my connection is pretty flakey at the moment so trying to restore the table entry in the code name index took forever, and Sir Lee made a huge edit in between so I had to do it all over again X(, that was a large part of why I was so frustrated with you) . Also you could at least have scrolled down on the forum search you must have made because that also would have told you your conclusion was wrong. Addiab 15:19, May 14, 2010 (UTC) Sorry about trampling over your edit. I was doing major regex search-and-replace using an external editor, which takes a bit of time, so I didn't notice at first when you edited in between. I don't know if Wikia simply doesn't offer the same "simultaneous edits" warning Wikipedia has, or if the way I did it unwittingly defeated it. Anyway, if this makes you feel any better, as soon as I noticed it I went back to put back whatever it was I had trampled over -- but you got there first... --Sir Lee 22:21, May 14, 2010 (UTC) No need to apologize whatsoever, I never even considered any thought along the lines that you should or could have done anything differently. The simultaneous edit thing exists, but in that case it might have been a problem on my side. Addiab 22:52, May 14, 2010 (UTC) OK, I've looked through the Old Cliques page, and the Power Rangers page, both from the old wiki. Zaiyan's page from the old wiki, if there was one, didn't make it into the backup file collection. So I'm not finding a basis for his physical description. And the physical description match was the argument for his being Yosho at Halloween. So, was there a Zaiyan page, and was the description copied from there? And if a Zaiyan page existed, where did the information come from. Seeing as the information on his current page is merely an expanding of what was on the Old Cliques entry, other than the physical description, but no new information, just rephrasing with more words. And some of those words weakening things, to whit 'strong death wish' changing to 'apparently he has a strong death wish', which to me is actually more tentative about it. It doesn't feel as much like original seed info as, say, one of the New Olympian pages, or the Ninjas. The question being, did the description exist on the page prior to the story being published, presuming the page predated the story? Or was the description added from the story, undermining the identity argument. If the first, hey, the argument is valid, if the latter, not. JohnBobMead 01:59, January 27, 2011 (UTC)